Opinion
"We should ask on both sides: what do we want to achieve from bilateral cooperation in the next 10-20 years?"
Interview with Denis Mancevic
Denis MancevicDenis Mancevic is a Slovenian expert on Russia,
CEO & Partner at Consulting company Herman & Partners
Creative Diplomacy had the privilege to talk about Russian-Slovenian relations to Dr. Denis Mancevic, Slovenian expert on Russia, CEO & Partner at consulting company Herman & Partners, a former diplomat. Dr. Mancevic fluently speaks Russian and feels very passionate about developing cooperation between our countries.
"If you choose a proactive approach then every door in Russia will be open to you".
PICREADI: How did it happen that you've become an expert on Russia? Did you choose the Russian language to study or was it a set of circumstances?
Denis Mancevic (DM): There is a couple of reasons for this: first is that my roots are from ex-Soviet Union, more precisely from Belarus. I was born there and lived there until my 10th birthday. Then my family moved to Slovenia and since 1991 we have been living in Slovenia. Second, due to the first reason I was very much interested in the Eastern part of the world and becoming a specialist in different areas of Eastern Europe or ex-Soviet Union with respect to energy, economics, international relations, diplomacy, etc. At the university, I studied different languages and different subjects, among them the Russian language and literature along with sociology and international relations.
PICREADI: You've been working as an Economic Counsellor at the Embassy of Slovenia in Moscow for 4 years (2010 – 2014). Please tell us about your life and work experience in Russia.
DM: My life and work experience in Russia during my post as a diplomat was just great. I had a definite advantage in comparison with other European diplomats in Moscow because I knew the language and the culture but anyhow my approach was very proactive and more practical. If you choose such an approach then every door in Russia will be open to you. Many people from different levels from the government to the local level are very open to contacts, discussions and some initiatives, but definitely you have to approach them. It is not about sitting in the embassy in Moscow and waiting until someone from the Russian side knocks on your door but you have to be creative, go around and knock on the door yourself and only then people will be open to you. I realized if I wanted to be successful as an Economic Councellor I had to be proactive.
I was working in Russia from 2010 to 2014, that was a post-crisis period and we had lots of expectations about boosting bilateral cooperation. So at that time there were large investment projects in different fields: energy, agriculture, telecommunications, construction and infrastructure, particularly in Sochi, and our embassy was proactive in connecting Slovenian companies with the Russian administration and construction developers. And when our Russian counterparts saw we took the initiative they became open towards Slovenian companies and willing to cooperate. Definitely they wouldn't approach us, we had to be proactive. Of course, mostly there were Slovenian initiatives but this is logical if you look at the size of our countries, the size of economies, also in terms of bilateral trade as Slovenia exports more than imports, and being proactive is more in our interest than vice versa. It's not so easy to find economic interest from the Russian side with respect to the Slovenian market because it's relatively small but for Slovenia Russia is a very important economic partner.
Denis Mancevic (DM): There is a couple of reasons for this: first is that my roots are from ex-Soviet Union, more precisely from Belarus. I was born there and lived there until my 10th birthday. Then my family moved to Slovenia and since 1991 we have been living in Slovenia. Second, due to the first reason I was very much interested in the Eastern part of the world and becoming a specialist in different areas of Eastern Europe or ex-Soviet Union with respect to energy, economics, international relations, diplomacy, etc. At the university, I studied different languages and different subjects, among them the Russian language and literature along with sociology and international relations.
PICREADI: You've been working as an Economic Counsellor at the Embassy of Slovenia in Moscow for 4 years (2010 – 2014). Please tell us about your life and work experience in Russia.
DM: My life and work experience in Russia during my post as a diplomat was just great. I had a definite advantage in comparison with other European diplomats in Moscow because I knew the language and the culture but anyhow my approach was very proactive and more practical. If you choose such an approach then every door in Russia will be open to you. Many people from different levels from the government to the local level are very open to contacts, discussions and some initiatives, but definitely you have to approach them. It is not about sitting in the embassy in Moscow and waiting until someone from the Russian side knocks on your door but you have to be creative, go around and knock on the door yourself and only then people will be open to you. I realized if I wanted to be successful as an Economic Councellor I had to be proactive.
I was working in Russia from 2010 to 2014, that was a post-crisis period and we had lots of expectations about boosting bilateral cooperation. So at that time there were large investment projects in different fields: energy, agriculture, telecommunications, construction and infrastructure, particularly in Sochi, and our embassy was proactive in connecting Slovenian companies with the Russian administration and construction developers. And when our Russian counterparts saw we took the initiative they became open towards Slovenian companies and willing to cooperate. Definitely they wouldn't approach us, we had to be proactive. Of course, mostly there were Slovenian initiatives but this is logical if you look at the size of our countries, the size of economies, also in terms of bilateral trade as Slovenia exports more than imports, and being proactive is more in our interest than vice versa. It's not so easy to find economic interest from the Russian side with respect to the Slovenian market because it's relatively small but for Slovenia Russia is a very important economic partner.
Vurnik House in Ljubljana, Slovenia
PICREADI: What are the peculiarities of doing business with Russians?
DM: I can point out at least 2 faces of Russia in terms of business: Russia's soviet style, which is driven by administration, and the other style, which is liberal and more open to global contacts. The first one is more formal, partners have to follow strict procedures and rules, the role of the government is very important. But once a good relationship is established and common understanding of a problem is reached, it becomes easier to work. The second style is applied more by private business: it's open and more pro western, without strict rules, the role of the government and officials is not so much important and thus it's easier and faster to connect. And what is interesting for me is that how these 2 faces of Russian economy will develop in future.
Russia and Slovenia have common roots and Slavic history, so it was never hard to start discussions with our Russian counterparts. The majority of Russians from different levels knows about Slovenia, about our good cultural cooperation and Slovenian blue chips like Krka and Gorenje companies. Those Russians that I had an opportunity to talk to were very open and friendly toward Slovenia but in current times it's not enough to do business, to build a strong relationship, it has to be much more. But in terms of starting point Slovenia has a very good position in Russia.
PICREADI: You've already mentioned our nations' common Slavic roots. What exactly do we have in common in our contemporary cultural codes?
DM: Our nations have very similar languages. Lots of Russians with higher education or some orthodox background understand Slovenian if to speak slowly. Those who travel to Slovenia say that after a couple of weeks it becomes easy to understand the language as there are many common words and phrases (in Slovenian "mleko" and in Russian "moloko", etc). Slovenian among all Slavic languages is more close to the old Slavic language. The Russian language was also close to it before the revolution when it was reformed.
DM: I can point out at least 2 faces of Russia in terms of business: Russia's soviet style, which is driven by administration, and the other style, which is liberal and more open to global contacts. The first one is more formal, partners have to follow strict procedures and rules, the role of the government is very important. But once a good relationship is established and common understanding of a problem is reached, it becomes easier to work. The second style is applied more by private business: it's open and more pro western, without strict rules, the role of the government and officials is not so much important and thus it's easier and faster to connect. And what is interesting for me is that how these 2 faces of Russian economy will develop in future.
Russia and Slovenia have common roots and Slavic history, so it was never hard to start discussions with our Russian counterparts. The majority of Russians from different levels knows about Slovenia, about our good cultural cooperation and Slovenian blue chips like Krka and Gorenje companies. Those Russians that I had an opportunity to talk to were very open and friendly toward Slovenia but in current times it's not enough to do business, to build a strong relationship, it has to be much more. But in terms of starting point Slovenia has a very good position in Russia.
PICREADI: You've already mentioned our nations' common Slavic roots. What exactly do we have in common in our contemporary cultural codes?
DM: Our nations have very similar languages. Lots of Russians with higher education or some orthodox background understand Slovenian if to speak slowly. Those who travel to Slovenia say that after a couple of weeks it becomes easy to understand the language as there are many common words and phrases (in Slovenian "mleko" and in Russian "moloko", etc). Slovenian among all Slavic languages is more close to the old Slavic language. The Russian language was also close to it before the revolution when it was reformed.
Slovenian Blue Chips: The Most Liquid Shares on the Ljubljana Stock Exchange
PICREADI: How do you estimate the current state of bilateral relations between Slovenia and Russia: are they on a sufficient level or do they need to be developed?
DM: We have a very good cultural cooperation – we've done a lot in this respect. We also have a good cooperation in science – I know that currently 7 Slovenians are studying in MGIMO, which is good. But I believe there're lots of other opportunities to grow our bilateral relations. What I miss most of all is greater economic cooperation, greater investment cooperation. The structure of economic cooperation between our countries hasn't changed for 20 years. There're no new companies in our collaborative market. However, for the time being, a lot of Slovenian companies could be presented on the Russian market. I imply companies that develop technologies for waste management – this topic is becoming very important and popular in the whole world and also in Russia, for agriculture, IT companies (some of them are present on the market, some are not). On the other side, Slovenia also has some opportunities for import from Russia.
Economic cooperation between our countries is not sufficient. For example in Ljubljana there is a very active US Chamber of Commerce – AmCham, a very active British-Slovenian Chamber, German-Slovene Chamber of Commerce and Chinese have been starting to pursue efforts in this regard, but no Russian trade representative. This is one thing. Second, despite the fact that there's Intergovernmental Russian-Slovenian commission on trade and scientific cooperation that has previously played important role, for the next years its format is not suitable because it's not flexible.
We should set up business forums… I mean we should do something in respect to everyday business contacts: open those chambers that I've mentioned, hold forums also with cultural and educational topics, launch and provide large information flow, and not only high intergovernmental contacts twice a year which is too little.
PICREADI: Does Slovenia really need such a wide economic cooperation with Russia?
DM: Yes. First, Russian market is among 10 most important for Slovenian economy markets (the place changes year by year, 6th or 7th place, it depends on the prices of oil and gas). Apart from that, for some Slovenian companies Russia is the most important market. For example for Krka (one of the leading international pharmaceutical companies in the world with headquarters in Slovenia – CD) Russia is by far the most important market. Second, looking from the global scale it is better to increase economic cooperation with those markets where we are already present than to go to a totally new market for example to Far East where population really doesn't know Slovenia. Slovenian starting position in Vietnam or Indonesia is totally different from one in Russia. That's why it is still very important to grow cooperation in our bilateral relations.
DM: We have a very good cultural cooperation – we've done a lot in this respect. We also have a good cooperation in science – I know that currently 7 Slovenians are studying in MGIMO, which is good. But I believe there're lots of other opportunities to grow our bilateral relations. What I miss most of all is greater economic cooperation, greater investment cooperation. The structure of economic cooperation between our countries hasn't changed for 20 years. There're no new companies in our collaborative market. However, for the time being, a lot of Slovenian companies could be presented on the Russian market. I imply companies that develop technologies for waste management – this topic is becoming very important and popular in the whole world and also in Russia, for agriculture, IT companies (some of them are present on the market, some are not). On the other side, Slovenia also has some opportunities for import from Russia.
Economic cooperation between our countries is not sufficient. For example in Ljubljana there is a very active US Chamber of Commerce – AmCham, a very active British-Slovenian Chamber, German-Slovene Chamber of Commerce and Chinese have been starting to pursue efforts in this regard, but no Russian trade representative. This is one thing. Second, despite the fact that there's Intergovernmental Russian-Slovenian commission on trade and scientific cooperation that has previously played important role, for the next years its format is not suitable because it's not flexible.
We should set up business forums… I mean we should do something in respect to everyday business contacts: open those chambers that I've mentioned, hold forums also with cultural and educational topics, launch and provide large information flow, and not only high intergovernmental contacts twice a year which is too little.
PICREADI: Does Slovenia really need such a wide economic cooperation with Russia?
DM: Yes. First, Russian market is among 10 most important for Slovenian economy markets (the place changes year by year, 6th or 7th place, it depends on the prices of oil and gas). Apart from that, for some Slovenian companies Russia is the most important market. For example for Krka (one of the leading international pharmaceutical companies in the world with headquarters in Slovenia – CD) Russia is by far the most important market. Second, looking from the global scale it is better to increase economic cooperation with those markets where we are already present than to go to a totally new market for example to Far East where population really doesn't know Slovenia. Slovenian starting position in Vietnam or Indonesia is totally different from one in Russia. That's why it is still very important to grow cooperation in our bilateral relations.
Slovenian Foreign Minister Dr Miroslav Cerar and Russian Minister of Digital Development, Communications and Mass Media Konstantin Noskov (2019) | Republic of Slovenia, gov.si
"In Slovenia there's zero first-hand information about Russian economy and business perspectives in Russia.
All that we get here – news like what Putin said or about G20 format – we get only through high-ranking international media, but a lot of other events happen behind these high-level topics".
All that we get here – news like what Putin said or about G20 format – we get only through high-ranking international media, but a lot of other events happen behind these high-level topics".
PICREADI: What are the steps to boost economic cooperation between our countries?
DM: There's no need to invent something. First, open chambers. They shouldn't be big, just a couple of specialists who will work on this. Second, give more public information. In Slovenia there's zero first-hand information about Russian economy and business perspectives in Russia. All that we get here – news like what Putin said or about G20 format – we get only through high-ranking international media, but a lot of other events happen behind these high-level topics. As I see it should be more open communication in this respect. If Slovenian businessmen know about Russian market they will invest. But here is also a question of language – a company should have at least one specialist who speaks Russian to be able to communicate.
But everything starts from understanding business opportunities. If you don't see them you'll not invest. And of course there should be more proactive diplomacy and particularly economic diplomacy from the Slovenian side. Currently we have one diplomat in economic sector – Economic Councellor – in Moscow. When I was working in Moscow we were 3 colleagues (2 in Moscow, 1 in Kazan). For example Austrian economic representation office in Moscow consists of 10 or 12 people. Russia is big. And some basic infrastructure is obligatory: not only a chamber, but also more support from Slovenian diplomatic corps in Moscow.
DM: There's no need to invent something. First, open chambers. They shouldn't be big, just a couple of specialists who will work on this. Second, give more public information. In Slovenia there's zero first-hand information about Russian economy and business perspectives in Russia. All that we get here – news like what Putin said or about G20 format – we get only through high-ranking international media, but a lot of other events happen behind these high-level topics. As I see it should be more open communication in this respect. If Slovenian businessmen know about Russian market they will invest. But here is also a question of language – a company should have at least one specialist who speaks Russian to be able to communicate.
But everything starts from understanding business opportunities. If you don't see them you'll not invest. And of course there should be more proactive diplomacy and particularly economic diplomacy from the Slovenian side. Currently we have one diplomat in economic sector – Economic Councellor – in Moscow. When I was working in Moscow we were 3 colleagues (2 in Moscow, 1 in Kazan). For example Austrian economic representation office in Moscow consists of 10 or 12 people. Russia is big. And some basic infrastructure is obligatory: not only a chamber, but also more support from Slovenian diplomatic corps in Moscow.
PICREADI: Does Slovenia face difficulties in trade with Russia because of its membership in the EU?
DM: No, there are no restrictions from the European Commission, apart from sanction list, which limits country's counterparts in Russia. But this high-level political issue doesn't block economic cooperation in 90% of cases. So Slovenian companies can continue doing business.
DM: No, there are no restrictions from the European Commission, apart from sanction list, which limits country's counterparts in Russia. But this high-level political issue doesn't block economic cooperation in 90% of cases. So Slovenian companies can continue doing business.
PICREADI: In 2014 during the Ukrainian crisis the EU members imposed sanctions on Russia but Slovenia refrained from that step. How do you estimate such decision of the Slovenian government?
DM: It was an attempt of the previous foreign minister who isn't on that post any more. And it was his personal approach rather than the official Slovenian government decision. Slovenia is a part of EU and NATO, we follow common EU policy but at the same time within these limitations we try to do our best in developing a strategic relationship with Russia, China and US. Sanctions don't limit all bilateral cooperation, just some specific sectors. Anyhow Russia is open, and it's up to countries and particularly businesses, not governments, to decide who to cooperate with. Even while acting under sanctions there's always a room. For example Krka – they continued their contacts with Russia no matter what sanctions were.
PICREADI: Russian Embassy to Slovenia together with the Russian Center of Science and Culture in Ljubljana work hard and make great efforts in order to shape a positive image of Russia within the Slovenian society. The monument to Russian and Soviet soldiers who died in two world wars was erected in Ljubljana and the monument to Slovenian soldiers who died in two world wars on the Russian land which was built in return, The Herman Potočnik Noordung Center of Space Technologies in Vitanje, International Research center of the 2nd World War in Maribor. Are all these steps worth the efforts and do these events get reaction in the Slovenian society?
DM: Yes, there's reaction, but I would be careful with interpretation of overreaction of this. I believe that those steps are very important but anyhow they are connected with the past. And in Slovenia the past is dividing the nation, still. It's mainly connected with the role of the society and different groups after the 2nd World War. But what I miss is actions on the present and the future. All the initiatives that you've mentioned are about our common understanding of the past. Center of Space Technologies in Vitanje is a very nice project but what would we like to achieve from it in 10 or 20 years? We should ask this question on both sides: what do we want to achieve from bilateral cooperation in the next 10-20 years?
We should have in mind what the road of building cooperation and friendship exists. And economic cooperation is only one part of this. Now Lomonosov University opened its department in Koper (the fifth largest city in Slovenia, located on the coast – Note of CD). But how will we develop this further? Then we have a lot of innovations in energy sector, which is a key pillar of the Russian economy. We should think about what we can do in this respect. Russian agricultural sector is booming now due to the European sanctions. And this is also an opportunity for Slovenian companies.
DM: It was an attempt of the previous foreign minister who isn't on that post any more. And it was his personal approach rather than the official Slovenian government decision. Slovenia is a part of EU and NATO, we follow common EU policy but at the same time within these limitations we try to do our best in developing a strategic relationship with Russia, China and US. Sanctions don't limit all bilateral cooperation, just some specific sectors. Anyhow Russia is open, and it's up to countries and particularly businesses, not governments, to decide who to cooperate with. Even while acting under sanctions there's always a room. For example Krka – they continued their contacts with Russia no matter what sanctions were.
PICREADI: Russian Embassy to Slovenia together with the Russian Center of Science and Culture in Ljubljana work hard and make great efforts in order to shape a positive image of Russia within the Slovenian society. The monument to Russian and Soviet soldiers who died in two world wars was erected in Ljubljana and the monument to Slovenian soldiers who died in two world wars on the Russian land which was built in return, The Herman Potočnik Noordung Center of Space Technologies in Vitanje, International Research center of the 2nd World War in Maribor. Are all these steps worth the efforts and do these events get reaction in the Slovenian society?
DM: Yes, there's reaction, but I would be careful with interpretation of overreaction of this. I believe that those steps are very important but anyhow they are connected with the past. And in Slovenia the past is dividing the nation, still. It's mainly connected with the role of the society and different groups after the 2nd World War. But what I miss is actions on the present and the future. All the initiatives that you've mentioned are about our common understanding of the past. Center of Space Technologies in Vitanje is a very nice project but what would we like to achieve from it in 10 or 20 years? We should ask this question on both sides: what do we want to achieve from bilateral cooperation in the next 10-20 years?
We should have in mind what the road of building cooperation and friendship exists. And economic cooperation is only one part of this. Now Lomonosov University opened its department in Koper (the fifth largest city in Slovenia, located on the coast – Note of CD). But how will we develop this further? Then we have a lot of innovations in energy sector, which is a key pillar of the Russian economy. We should think about what we can do in this respect. Russian agricultural sector is booming now due to the European sanctions. And this is also an opportunity for Slovenian companies.
PICREADI: What do we need to build cooperation?
DM: I don't have a magic wand to build it. I still visit Moscow actually annually with my family. I have friends there and a lot of business contacts. And I believe this cultural thing that connects us through Slavic history is very strong and it will not go away in the next decades – I don't see any grounds for this. But as two nations we should do more to build added value base on this common history. We have common understanding of the past and now we should focus more on the future. We should communicate more openly, we should use more economic opportunities and not only within intergovernmental sticks, and of course we should diversify cooperation, establishing contacts in different areas.
DM: I don't have a magic wand to build it. I still visit Moscow actually annually with my family. I have friends there and a lot of business contacts. And I believe this cultural thing that connects us through Slavic history is very strong and it will not go away in the next decades – I don't see any grounds for this. But as two nations we should do more to build added value base on this common history. We have common understanding of the past and now we should focus more on the future. We should communicate more openly, we should use more economic opportunities and not only within intergovernmental sticks, and of course we should diversify cooperation, establishing contacts in different areas.
Representative Office of Rossotrudnichestvo in Slovenia - Russian Center for Science and Culture (RCSC) in Ljubljana
PICREADI: What does Slovenian youth think about cooperation with Russia?
DM: They were born after Yugoslavia and they care less about this. When they think about where to travel or where to study, Russia definitely doesn't pop up in top 3 alternatives. So this is again an opportunity for Russia to do more. For example Russian center of culture in Ljubljana is doing a lot with Russian speaking people in Slovenia: books, films, exhibitions, education – that's great, but today's young population is not only looking from this culture perspective but also from the perspective of career development and business opportunities. That's why I say that more active role will be very much important next years as it will enable to connect cultures, careers, education, business. Only cultural aspect or only language is not attractive any more for young population, they are looking at different aspects.
DM: They were born after Yugoslavia and they care less about this. When they think about where to travel or where to study, Russia definitely doesn't pop up in top 3 alternatives. So this is again an opportunity for Russia to do more. For example Russian center of culture in Ljubljana is doing a lot with Russian speaking people in Slovenia: books, films, exhibitions, education – that's great, but today's young population is not only looking from this culture perspective but also from the perspective of career development and business opportunities. That's why I say that more active role will be very much important next years as it will enable to connect cultures, careers, education, business. Only cultural aspect or only language is not attractive any more for young population, they are looking at different aspects.
PICREADI: So, Russia is not attractive for today's youth…
DM: Who says who is attractive and who is not? There're perceptions that are made. As I said British chamber in Slovenia has weekly events, AmCham and German chamber of commerce have the same. You will not be attractive if you do nothing or rely only on Cultural center or Space center in Vitanje.
DM: Who says who is attractive and who is not? There're perceptions that are made. As I said British chamber in Slovenia has weekly events, AmCham and German chamber of commerce have the same. You will not be attractive if you do nothing or rely only on Cultural center or Space center in Vitanje.
PICREADI: If your kids want to study in Russia will you let them?
DM: Sure. The world is more interconnected today than it was 30 years ago. I remember how difficult it was to travel from Belarus to Slovenia 30 years ago and how it is easy now. So definitely all opportunities are open today. I know MGIMO gives a lot of opportunities in social and international relations studies and Lomonosov University gives a lot of opportunities in mathematics and other spheres.
DM: Sure. The world is more interconnected today than it was 30 years ago. I remember how difficult it was to travel from Belarus to Slovenia 30 years ago and how it is easy now. So definitely all opportunities are open today. I know MGIMO gives a lot of opportunities in social and international relations studies and Lomonosov University gives a lot of opportunities in mathematics and other spheres.
PICREADI: What do you like most in Russia and in Slovenia?
DM: The size, but not the size as a physical aspect but the size as a whole: of mentality, culture, history. Metaphysically speaking the size of the nation. The size brings the differences. Russia's cultural heritage and history are impressive and I like to learn constantly about this. Russia is one of the most multicultural countries in the world, number of minorities in Russia is immense. But no one in the Western society knows it, and this is the job of Russia to say about this, to inform foreign public and thus to promote itself.
Speaking of my home country, I would underline two aspects: first, Slovenia is number 1 country in terms of conditions of living and life balance. Second, diversity on a very small territory: sea, mountains, lakes. You can do lots of things in Slovenia driving just 100 km. I'm living in Ljubljana and can fully enjoy this diversity.
DM: The size, but not the size as a physical aspect but the size as a whole: of mentality, culture, history. Metaphysically speaking the size of the nation. The size brings the differences. Russia's cultural heritage and history are impressive and I like to learn constantly about this. Russia is one of the most multicultural countries in the world, number of minorities in Russia is immense. But no one in the Western society knows it, and this is the job of Russia to say about this, to inform foreign public and thus to promote itself.
Speaking of my home country, I would underline two aspects: first, Slovenia is number 1 country in terms of conditions of living and life balance. Second, diversity on a very small territory: sea, mountains, lakes. You can do lots of things in Slovenia driving just 100 km. I'm living in Ljubljana and can fully enjoy this diversity.
"Speaking of my home country, I would underline two aspects: first, Slovenia is number 1 country in terms of conditions of living and life balance.
Second, diversity on a very small territory: sea, mountains, lakes. You can do lots of things in Slovenia driving just 100 km. I'm living in Ljubljana and can fully enjoy this diversity".
Second, diversity on a very small territory: sea, mountains, lakes. You can do lots of things in Slovenia driving just 100 km. I'm living in Ljubljana and can fully enjoy this diversity".
Interviewed by EVGENIA KORKOVA, PICREADI special correspondent
Cover's photo: "Balance" by Artez in Jesenice, Slovenia
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